SITREP Georgia-Russian War Aug 17 08

By DemocracyRules

Russia Ups The Ante

Both Russia and Georgia have signed a ceasefire agreement, but its terms do not require Russia to withdraw.

Russia claimed it would begin troop withdrawals on Monday August 18.  However, the Russian military continue their attacks on civilians, looting and burning at will.  They are starting numerous forest fires and destroying infrastructure.  They have severed the East-West rail line that connects the country. They have advanced to within 30 km of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital.

The cyber-war continues. The Russians continue to assault Georgian websites.  Western websites are also being attacked, or suddenly flooded by pro-Russian postings.

Today the Ukraine offered to NATO the use of missile-detection radar systems left over from the cold war.

There are some linkages between the conflict in Georgia and the Middle East. Russia began their invasion of Georgia just when Iran desperately needed an international distraction.  The blockade of Iran's Persian Gulf ports seemed imminent.

Debkafile considers the implications for the Middle East. Russia may seek to install Iskandar surface missiles in Syria and its Baltic enclave of Kaliningrad (which is near Poland).  The 150-mile range Iskandar is a nuclear-capable cruise missile. Its cruise attributes make its launch and trajectory extremely hard to detect and intercept.

DEBKAfile speculates that Russia may provide the Iskandar to Syria, and the S-300 air-missile defense system to Iran.

Shortly before the Georgia invasion, Moscow promised Washington not to let Iran and Syria have these weapons.

Today Tzahi Hanegbi, chairman of the Israeli Knesset foreign affairs and defense committee, criticized treasury plans to cut the defense budget.

Pro Patria

Comments

[Vladimir Samarin]

Dear Sirs,

Though the nickname of the author supposes a reign of democracy, I do not see a single trace of democracy in it. My congrats on findind a blog of the Georgian foreign ministry. But why only one viewpoint is presented here?
Where is the opinion of the other side of the conflict?
Don't you think that another opinion is false and wrong just because it is the opinion of Russia?

By the way, what is your expertise in the history of the matter? Russia, Caucasus, Georgia?

You may consider me as a part of the flood pro-Russian postings, or as a real person with own opinion.
Anyhow, thanks to the Internet you have lost the possibility of spreading extreme disinformation about Russia and the Russians. The truth always comes out, sooner or later...

[From DR -- Vladimir is usually anglicized to Walter in Canada. Please keep your comments civil and to the point. Do not insult the owners of the website or your postings will be edited or deleted. Public discourse is diminished when people engage in ad hominem attacks. When you post please try to take positions that are factually defensible. Obviously, myriad opinions abound about Russia and Georgia. However, comments that stand out are those that are carefully fact-checked and cite reliable sources. Please add the web address of the sources, so that if other readers want to, they can review the source material. That way readers can make up their own minds regarding what is true or not. I may delete posts that are unsubstantiated common opinions, structured as invective. -- Pro Patria]

[John]

Vlad you are right that the truth will come out about this event but the possibility of it coming out of a Russian press diminishes day by day.

There political reporting is dying both figuratively and literally. What you don’t seem to understand is that the more propaganda the Russians put out about what happened here the less the propaganda machine is believed.

Tell me something. How does a peacekeeping force turn into an invading army and still try to hold the high moral ground?

Tell me something else. Why would a peacekeeping force, with the presumption of neutrality, hand out citizenship to the area in which they are supposed to be the unbiased arbiter?

I’d say that the biggest lesson that the Russian incursion has taught the world is to never trust a Russian peacekeeping force.

[Vladimir Samarin]

Mr. John Dow, I dare to totally disagree. Point by point.

RE: "the possibility of it coming out of a Russian press diminishes day by day."

Not more or less in comparison with possibility of it coming out of European or American press; which can be also drastically biased. Your own words are the best proof of it.

RE: "What you don’t seem to understand is that the more propaganda the Russians put out about what happened here [Are you really there? In betrayed by the West Ossetia?] the less the propaganda machine is believed."

What you don’t seem to understand is that the more propaganda the Westerners put out about what happened there the less the propaganda machine is believed. There could be no arguing that this way the sentence sounds not worse or better then in yours.

RE: "Tell me something. How does a peacekeeping force turn into an invading army and still try to hold the high moral ground?"

Sometimes this happens. The nazis invading the USSR initially had pretty high moral. The US Army invading Iraq (as it turned out later, without any substantial reason, and in any case illegally according to the international laws, but who cares about such stuff if America needs something?) held high moral. Bombing Yugoslavia and oppressing Serbia, the Americans had also very high moral; though Kosovars were not citizens of any NATO country.
And most South Ossetian are Russian citizens. No doubt, that the moral level of our peacekeeping (and now -- peaceforcing) forces has the highest moral possible. We defend our citizens.

RE: "Why would a peacekeeping force, with the presumption of neutrality, hand out citizenship to the area in which they are supposed to be the unbiased arbiter?"

You can seldom find unbiased political arbiters. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Yugoslavia/Serbia/Kosovo, USSR, Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia, and many other countries being some time a subject of political issues were never judged unbiased.

The people of South Ossetia do not like to live in a nazi country Saakashvili builds up with enthusiastic help of the USA, that well deserves a much better application. They want to live as a part of Russia, and they proved their intent in two referendums.

And Cristians of South Ossetia deserve respect to their will not less than Muslims of Kosovo (in fact, that occupied the historical Serbian land, cleaned the Serbs out of it and pretended to be the innocent victims).

And no wonder that Russia is, and to bigger extent be in the future a major peacekeeper (and if needed, peace enforcer) around its borders.

This is how the things are, Mr. Double Standard.

RE: "I’d say that the biggest lesson that the Russian incursion has taught the world is to never trust a Russian peacekeeping force."

I’d say that the biggest lesson that the American incursion in Iraq taught the world was to never trust the CIA, the US Army and the American administration in general. Also not bad, isn't it?

Luckily, there are sober-minded and far-sighted people around in the Western world, that can see the real lessons the situation taught.

[Vladimir Samarin]

To Mr. DR:

RE: "Vladimir is usually anglicized to Walter in Canada."

Live and learn! Linguistical issues are my great hobby. I have never heard about that; maybe because we were never taught Canadian English in the USSR/Russia.

RE: "Please keep your comments civil and to the point."

I always try. I also always try to speak the language my opponent uses.

RE: "Do not insult the owners of the website or your postings will be edited or deleted. Public discourse is diminished when people engage in ad hominem attacks."

My sincere apologies if somebody was insulted by my words. In any case there was vever such an intention behind my words. I do hope the very fact of existence of a different (and sometimes opposite) opinion will never be regarded as an insult.

RE: "When you post please try to take positions that are factually defensible. Obviously, myriad opinions abound about Russia and Georgia."

First I try to use sober mind and common sense, tlaking about the fact stated in an original posting.

RE: "However, comments that stand out are those that are carefully fact-checked and cite reliable sources."

I just cannot believe that our Kommersant paper or the blog of the Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs can be considered as reliable sources. (What about the Dr. Gebbels' Propaganda Ministry?)
Just because they are biased and reflect only one viewpoint (using sometimes altered or manipulated information), not making a full image.

RE: "I may delete posts that are unsubstantiated common opinions, structured as invective. -- Pro Patria"

This is your Rome; I never teach fishes to swim, but cannot always do in Rome as Romans do. Edit me, delete me, ban me -- I won't get insulted, I'll just feel censored ;-) Or a wounded soldier of the information war, if you wish.

I like your slogan (or how do you call it) -- Pro Patria. We also use it in Russian (especially wide during the WW2, when we were allied forces, though each day there are less and less people who have personal remembrances of that).

Pity that the image of Russia was diffamated in the Western world for centuries (at least three, up to five by some estimations; also need proofs?), and people often see it as a kind of scarecrow. Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo; I do my part in acting 'pro patria mea'.