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August 22, 2008

Comments

By their silence shall we know them, you say... I agree. But so shall we by their words -- and actions.

Today, all peace groups and pro-democracy groups world-wide should be protesting against the brutal attempt to occupy and subjugate South Ossetia, which years ago definitely expressed its will to independence of Georgia. Any peace group or pro-democracy group which criticizes democracies must also be ready to criticize dictatorships.

[From DR -- South Ossetia and Abkhazia are provinces of Georgia. They are clearly within the borders of the country, and as such they are subject to the rule of Georgia. According to International law and treaties, Russia is not entitled to invade Georgia except in very special circumstances.

Georgia has not threatened Russia in any way. Her military is less than 28,000, whereas Russia has about 1 million troops. The Georgian president has never threatened to "Wipe Russia off the map". People do not congregate in Georgia and shout "Death to Russia". The Georgians are not building nuclear weapons to attack Russia.

South Ossetians and Abkhazians were not oppressed, victimized or subjugated by Georgia. No genocide occurred, and Georgia granted both regions a large degree of autonomy. Georgia is progressing toward democracy, while Russia is regressing to dictatorship. By the way, I really wish you would read the FreedomHouse.org reports about Russia and Georgia. Those reports are very fair and objective. When I produce facts, you ignore them and argue using only emotion.]

[I am aware that massive Russian efforts were made to bribe people to declare allegiance to Russia. Russian passports were given to any who wanted them, and in fact Russian soldiers are reportedly still doing this in parts of Georgia. For more than 15 years, Russia has been interfering in the internal political affairs of Georgia.]

I add to your nice words some more. You should be able to see dictatorship even if covered by the mask -- or rhetorics -- of democracy.

[I wish you would stop using the word democracy until you found out more what it means.]

And you should prove your words. Prove with facts.

[Actually I document and reference my posting very carefully. But you don't seem to read the source material that I point to.]

RE: "Russia has invaded a sovereign country, murdering, raping, looting and burning."

[Yes, there is a great deal of independent observational evidence for each of my assertions. Really, it won't take long for you to review my recent postings and follow the links. Independent Russian observers agree that these things are occurring.]

Facts? Except for Georgian soldiers that were KIA? But they got what they came for. They also proved that it was waste of money of American tax-payers, to train the Georgian army and provide it with military equipment.

[No one deserves to be murdered. Civilians who died outside the borders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia were victims of genocide.

Regarding the civilians inside the borders of those territories, it is illegal to abuse, injure, rape, and/or kill any such person. This law applies to Georgian soldiers and Russian soldiers. It is still unproven as to who started the conflict, but Russia was fomenting trouble for at least 15 years on the borders. The Roki tunnel and the Abkhazia railroad were pushed onto Georgia.]

Where were you when the Georgian democracy under 'democratically elected' (by 96% voices -- hey, such 'democracy' existed sometimes in the Soviet Union) Saakashvili suddenly went made and did a truly barbarian attack on a handful of our peacekeepers and thousands of civilian people of South Ossetia, using heavy artillery, Grads, tanks?

[You lack sufficient evidence to make these claims. Saakashvili has pointed out that Georgia very well knew Russia was heavily armed near the Georgian border. He has been saying this for more than one year. Georgia had no intention of starting a war with a 1 million-man army. However, when 150 Russian armored vehicles passed through the Roki tunnel into Georgia, the Georgian military did what they could to hold onto their country, by confronting the invading Russians.

Frankly, this is the only explanation that is credible. Otherwise, how, exactly, could 150 armored Russian vehicles be able to zoom through the Roki tunnel on a moments notice? Why would the Russian invaders be composed of so many troops experienced from the Chechnya war? I'm sorry, Aristotle invented logic, I just use it.]

Why didn't you raise your voice of protest then, at the moment when tens of thousand of South Ossetians were made to escape from their native ground, and the Georgian president turned out to be a cruel dictator?

[Uh, there was no time to raise our voices. In Canada, by the time we heard about the Russian invasion, Georgia had already been defeated.]

You're from Canada, aren't you?

[Yes I am, and I never worry that tomorrow the Americans will invade us.]

Let us suppose for a moment that all people of Quebec vote for independence. They close the border with the rest of Canada unilaterally, and, say, Stephen Harper orders the Canadian army to intervene? What would you say in this hypothetical case, Mr. DR?

[Quebec is an excellent example of how to abide by international law. (1) The first rule is that the matter shall be settled within the countries' borders, without outside interference. For example, the Americans or the French have not rushed into Quebec offering American or French passports, or paying for Quebec's budget.

(2) Your border closure idea is interesting. First, a majority of Quebecois have never voted for independence. With South Ossetia and Abkazia, votes were taken after years of massive intervention from Russia. In addition to offering passports and dual citizenship, Russians paid for most of the province's budgets, and helped make the ethnic Georgians feel so unwelcome that many left. There is nothing free and fair about that process.

(3) One of the main reasons that Canada invented peace-keeping, and has engaged in it for decades, is because of Quebec. If violence were to erupt within Quebec, we are determined that we will handle it carefully and with as little violence as possible. Thus, our peacekeepers are well trained. In Afghanistan they are full soldiers and "peacemakers", but we are best at calming down trouble spots.

By the way, if Quebec erupted, and lives were lost, Canadian would NOT leave dead bodies lying around, for days, desecrated, burned, or IN MUD PUDDLES WHERE THEY ROT. We handle the dead with care. They had families too.]

Try to get rid of double standards; such a power as the USA are now could play a really peacekeeping role worldwide -- if peace and democracy were their real intent.

[Walter, you really have to get out more, and read more about democracy. The West does not have to force democracy on anyone. When it becomes available, people reach out to take it. There is no pain involved. Neither Japan nor Germany suffers because they have become democracies.

Don't leave home without it. -- Pro Patria]

Just to start with.

RE: "South Ossetia and Abkhazia are provinces of Georgia. They are clearly within the borders of the country, and as such they are subject to the rule of Georgia."

I wish you learn the history of the USSR, Russia and Caucasus better.

After disintergaion of the Russian Empire (there were no autunomous districts or republics in it) Georgia declared its independence on May 26, 1918. Though the Decree of Independence had provisions for free development of all people living in the Georgian territory, South Ossetians did not get any autonomity. Istead, they were accused of separatism; and in the fall of 1918 the Georgians suppressed a rebellion of "Ossetian Betrayors" in Shida Kartli. Another rebellion of the South Ossetians exploded in 1920, and again it was violently suppressed.

By the way, at that time the Georgians fought also against Abkhazians and Armenians.

There were no peace until the Red Army installed the Soviet power in Caucasus.

The Abkhazian Soviet Socialist Republic was formed on March 4, 1921.
Next day, on March 5 1921, the Soviet power was declared in Tskhinval, which became the capital of South-Ossetian Republic (Khussar Iryston).
Only thanks to tricky political games of Joseph Stalin (a Georgian himself, by the way, his real name is Iosif Dzhugashvili) Abkhazia was incorporated into Georgia (Dec. 1921), and later, in April 1922, South Ossetia became a part of Georgia as an autonomous district.
On Dec. 31, 1922, Georgia entered the USSR.

SO SOUTH OSSETIA AND ABKHAZIA HAVE NEVER BEEN PROVINCES OF GEORGIA.
They were forced to be incorporetd in Georgia, but even so they were autonomous regions or republics.

Abkhazia declared its independence of Georgia in April 1989 -- in Soviet Union.

The independence of Georgia (from the USSR) was declared on April 9, 1991, and Zviad Gamsakhurdia won presidential elections on May 26 same year. Though the elections were democratic, the man himself was ultra-nationalist intending to cancel any autonomity within integer Georgia. A year did not pass, but there were armed rebellions, and Zviad had to run away from Georgia.

In March 1992 Shevardnadze (ex-Foreign minister of the USSR) become the Georgian leader. He decided to solve Abkhazian problem first -- with power of arms, and the result was too bad...

In 1993 Zviad Gamsakhurdia starts armed rebellion against Shevardnadze. To keep things under control, Shevardnadze applied to Russia for help, and made Georgia a member of the CIS. Since Jan. 4, 2004 the motherland of great Stalin is governed by Mikhail Saakashvili.

Take also into account that internal borders within the Soviet Union were mostly fictious, and South Ossetians lived same life with their brothers from North Ossetia. As soon as the administrative borders became state borders, the things changed.

Since disintegration of the Soviet Union, South Ossetia was never governed by Georgia.

The are independent de facto for 17 years. The world has nothing but to accept this fact.

Mr. DR, I cannot see much logic in your notices here; instead, I see lack of historical knowledge and even lack of basic information. The official chronology of the conflict is awailable from all major news agencies, I suppose.

Just two weeks have passed, and you have succeeded to make everything upside down, call white black and vice versa.

PS: You write, 'Germany has become democracy'... Have you ever heard that Hitler came to power in quite a democratic way?

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